<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4Iqa4CoMciU" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe> # Ros Nealon-Cook Interview ## LLM SUMMARY In this interview, Ros Neilon Cook, a former registered psychologist and founding member of the Cape Byron Lighthouse Declaration, discusses her concerns about the psychological impacts of COVID lockdowns and government responses. She highlights the damaging effects on children and families, particularly in areas already suffering from economic loss due to bushfires. Cook also addresses her attempts to raise these issues with professional boards and the subsequent gag orders placed on health professionals in Australia. The conversation explores the use of psychology in government propaganda, the importance of understanding one's psychological responses, and the vision behind the Cape Byron Lighthouse Declaration aimed at raising awareness about censorship and advocating for informed consent and medical autonomy. ## IDEAS 1. The COVID lockdowns had potentially devastating psychological impacts on children and families. 2. In Australia, health professionals faced gag orders preventing them from speaking out against government vaccine policies. 3. Government propaganda utilised psychological techniques to enforce compliance among the population. 4. Understanding basic psychology can help individuals recognise manipulation tactics used in advertising, marketing, and by governments. 5. The Cape Byron Lighthouse Declaration was established to raise awareness about censorship and advocate for informed consent and medical autonomy. 6. The declaration calls for an end to silencing and censorship of experienced practitioners and scientists. 7. Psychological manipulation by organizations or governments can lead to unethical practices that prioritize profits over individual well-being. 8. There is a need for widespread psychoeducation to empower individuals to understand their own psychological responses and resist manipulation. 9. The future vision involves raising consciousness about how humanity arrived at its current state and learning lessons to reform incumbent systems. 10. Advocacy is seen as fundamental to the role of any healthcare provider, emphasizing the importance of speaking out even in the face of potential consequences. ## QUOTES 1. "I couldn't believe it; I would face disciplinary action because I'm terrified about what's going to happen to the children of the country." - Ros Neilon Cook 2. "Psychology, medicine, science works on debates...and here we had this top-down totalitarian authoritarian dictatorial edicts saying shut up do what you're told." - Ros Neilon Cook 3. "The entire population is highly traumatized...and they were using and really deeply misusing weaponizing psychology to make people comply." - Ros Neilon Cook 4. "Mandates and other forms of medical coercion are unethical and must cease; bodily autonomy is the inalienable right of every individual." - Cape Byron Lighthouse Declaration 5. "Courage and bravery is not about having no reaction to speaking out; it's about pushing through all of your terror...and still speaking the truth." - Ros Neilon Cook 6. "We have to act and shape [the future]...it's so important because the more people that speak up, the quicker the group grows." - Ros Neilon Cook 7. "We need everyone to understand how their brains work...so they don't fall for these things so easily." - Ros Neilon Cook 8. "It's not your fault you're not stupid; you were manipulated and you weren't able to see this other information because of how technology is being used." - Ros Neilon Cook 9. "The retirees who see what's going on...please add your voice because...younger ones really respect your wisdom." - Ros Neilon Cook 10. "It's almost like waking a sleeping baby...if we can hold compassion for people when they find out, the ground's going to fall out from under them." - Ros Neilon Cook ## HABITS 1. Cook initially refrained from speaking out due to her position as a relatively new psychologist but felt compelled by the severity of the situation. 2. Despite facing potential disciplinary action, she reached out to professional associations expressing concern over lockdown measures. 3. To protect her license while raising awareness, Cook conducted extensive due diligence before publicly addressing her concerns. 4. After realizing the extent of censorship and propaganda, she dedicated herself to educating others about psychological manipulation. 5. Recognizing her limitations in public speaking, Cook sought advice before interviews to effectively communicate her message. ## FACTS 1. Australia implemented strict COVID lockdown measures starting in 2020, significantly impacting mental health. 2. Health professionals in Australia faced gag orders prohibiting them from criticizing government vaccine policies. 3. Psychological techniques were employed by governments during the COVID pandemic to influence public behavior and compliance. 4. The Cape Byron Lighthouse Declaration advocates for ending censorship in healthcare discussions related to COVID policies. 5. Organizations can exhibit psychopathic behaviors when prioritizing profits over ethics or individual well-being. ## REFERENCES - Cape Byron Lighthouse Declaration - Australian government COVID policies - Psychological manipulation techniques in advertising and government propaganda - Importance of informed consent in medical decisions ## RECOMMENDATIONS 1. Individuals should seek to understand basic psychology to recognize manipulation tactics. 2. Healthcare providers must advocate for their patients' best interests despite potential repercussions. 3. Societies should value insights from retirees and elders as they often possess wisdom gained from experience. 4. Psychoeducation should be widely promoted as a means to empower individuals against psychological manipulation. 5. Transparency and reform are needed in science, medicine, and media to ensure ethical practices are upheld. # transcript Welcome to this video and all the way from sunny Sydney Australia I'd like to welcome Ros Neilon Cook who unfortunately is a former registered psychologist but we may well come on to that. Ros welcome thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me John the pleasure is all mine. Thank you. So you've started or you have found a member of an organisation called the Cape Byron Lighthouse Declaration. And I think the evidence there really is on the lighthouse isn't it and what the lighthouse represents. Yes. But what what is how did all this start I mean presumably a few years ago you were a happy psychologist specialising in children and families. Did something go wrong? Something did go wrong John and that was like so many of your listeners and yourself was the Covid lockdowns and the government response to the Covid lockdowns. I psychology is my second career so even though I'm well into middle age I have only you know been in this profession for 15 years. What was concerning me the most about what I was seeing was the damaging effects of the lockdown the potentially damaging effects of the lockdowns on the children and the families. I'm not actually in Sydney I'm in an area west of Sydney called the Blue Mountains and the reason I'm raising that is that I don't know if you even heard of it but about six months before the lockdowns we had one of the worst bushfire seasons in Australia that we'd ever seen. Did you hear about that? And where I live we're in a tourist community so we had already the the local population had suffered dramatically in terms of loss of income there were no tourists coming because of the fires and when we see that in a population that's primarily based on tourism we see of course the I don't know if it's natural but the increases in drug and alcohol abuse domestic violence you know all sorts of abuse throughout the lifespan and when Covid came along and they were talking about blocking the cruise ships etc which bring in a huge amount of the tourism here I was especially worried because we'd already lost a whole summer season of tourism and when they were talking about stopping the cruise boats and locking us down for a long time I was very very worried because ultimately the the children that I work at downstream of the impacts on the parents and when parents lose their income when parents also are locked at home of course you get like I said the increases in domestic violence in drug and alcohol abuse and that flows down to the children who end up being highly traumatized so I was very very concerned however as a relatively new psychologist I didn't think it was my place to speak out I assumed people sort of higher up the chain as it were would speak out because it was very obvious to me early on that the psychological impacts of this were going to be devastating not just a little bit devastating for generations so that's how I came into this yes and what did you do with these concerns initially how did you express them and were you able to communicate with your leaders and I tried to initially I like I said I sort of waited I think a lot of us did then I would speak to other people whether it was friends family members other professionals and I remember this sort of growing disquiet as I would see almost these highly intelligent people with these sort of numbed out faces they just were not taking it in but again I kept thinking well who am I to I must be wrong I must somehow be wrong because surely the powers that be who are far as I felt more superior to me they're they will come in and fix things and the when was it so the first lockdown for 2020 my sense I actually thought and I hate to say this but I actually thought that it was going to be the northern winter of 2020-21 that was going to see so much psychological collateral damage I mean can you imagine being a mum a single mum in a glaswegian housing estate with five kids having to homeschool them etc so I thought there was going to be such it would become obvious that this was far worse in terms of the psychological impacts and people would do something it didn't happen so I did I tried to speak out I in the end I don't know if you remember but we had so we went into this four-month lockdown we had incredible lockdowns here we went into a four-month lockdown in July 2020 and it was very obvious because that was sort of if you remember back in that delta time we knew because of what they were saying in the media that it was going to be months it wasn't going to be weeks this one and so that was the point that I wrote to the psychology boards I wrote to the various different professional associations and I said very you know politely what are we doing here we know the collateral damage is going to be enormous what can we do and I was told very frankly that yes we understand and other psychologists have written in as you have but you must understand that if you do speak out you will face disciplinary action because of the Australian government gag orders and I remember I see your your response to that John I remember having such a visceral response to that because I thought that's the way they talk in North Korea or China and I mean that might sound naive now but I couldn't believe it I would face disciplinary action because I'm terrified about what's going to happen to the children of the country and the planet at large so but what they did say was that they said other psychologists have written to them and at that point I didn't realize any had so I ended up contacting two psychologists that I know who are very very experienced trauma psychologists and again it was always so hard to open up those conversations wasn't it because people would think you're some sort of conspiracy theory theorist anti-vax which is how the whole media had programmed things so I sort of gently asked them something feels a bit wrong and they just launched in yeah absolutely this is appalling and so I suggested that we make a video together and the three of us were going to do that however at each point each point I wanted to bring up they said we can't say that because we could lose our license or we can't say that because we could lose our license and by the end it was going to be so sort of impotent that there wasn't much point in doing it so in the end I decided I just have to I can't not speak out so I'll do it alone and I'll do you know extensive due diligence to try and protect my license and I did and it was during that process that I found out so much more than I realized it's quite incredible isn't it it's psychology medicine science works on debates it works on thesis anti-thesis synthesis progressive dialectic development exchange of ideas and here we had this top-down totalitarian authoritarian dictatorial edicts saying shut up do what you're told ignore your professional training there's no debate here we know best your role is to obey your role is to say yes I mean I'm reminded of the sort of um no it's almost like a Stanley Milgram situation isn't it where absolutely it's a Stanley Milgram situation 100 all of the and that was one of the things John what was interesting was that when I decided to make that video what I was trying to communicate was that the collateral damages were going to be extensive my sense was that and I my family's English my mum grew up you know I was born during the second world war and so there's a real legacy there from the sort of keep calm and carry on period and I thought it was more about raising awareness in this very very unique time in history where in the western world we haven't had major calamity on home soil and that's really unusual and so previously the whole community was wired in a more sympathetic and I'm talking about autonomically sympathetic way uh whereas now most people we don't expect those sorts of things to happen like I said I mean I've traveled a lot I've been to Russia and Turkey and all these places and I used to sort of laugh a little bit when I'd see their very overt corruption and think oh that that had never happened in England or Australia and how wrong I was and so that was the premise with which I was initially making that video but then when I started doing the really as I said deep due diligence I suddenly found this whole new world of censorship and that was the piece I didn't know about the censorship and the propaganda and then the horrible realization that this the entire population is highly highly traumatized it's not used to being traumatized because there haven't been these uh you know extremely stressful situations in the western countries generally um and not only that but that they were using and really deeply misusing weaponizing psychology to make people comply I was so deeply distressed by this John I kept thinking I had it wrong I kept thinking I had it wrong how could this be going on that I you know I told you when we've chatted previously I ended up I lost two stone I the existential distress of this it blew my world I couldn't fathom that in Australia or England the governments could actually be deliberately censoring and deliberately putting out this highly coercive propaganda to make people fall into line obedience be locked at home with those damp potential damages but then ultimately be coercion isn't even it's not strong enough a word uh people ultimately had a gun to their head take this vaccine or you lose your job you felt you were advocating for your patients and your clients you you were a professional advocate acting in their best interests absolutely I see advocacy as fundamental to the role of any health care provider my patient doesn't know things they're in a vulnerable situation so I advocate on their behalf and is that what you felt you were doing it it absolutely was and what I also did I'm sure you have something similar in the UK John we have I know they have the same thing in Canada in Australia if you work with children we have something called mandatory reporting obligations do you have something similar so if we have a sense that there might be any form of abuse or neglect and there's eight different risks of significant harm that they put down as that that we must as professionals indicate that to the the various authorities and normally that's done on a case by case base but in this situation when I went and looked again at all of the different eight forms of potential harm and they go through from physical violence neglect risk to the unborn child that was another huge one all eight forms absolutely unequivocally were going to be you know potentially at risk from the the government response so I put my video out as a mandatory report and what was interesting was that I spoke to a lawyer I was really nervous doing it as well John I didn't want to do this I'm not someone who speaks up generally you know I've never done anything publicly but it got to the point where as a parent and as someone who works with children I can't I couldn't not not speak out but so I used that mechanism and I spoke to a lawyer the night before I finally had the courage to put that video out and I said to him I want to do this as a mandatory report how does that sit with the gag orders so we had gag orders you didn't have them we actually had gag orders put on us in Australia all health professionals do not speak out against the government vaccine policy and he said he said oh that's a really good idea he said that actually trumps he said that law mandatory reporting obligations to protect children are higher than gag orders put out by bureaucracies so did these gag orders include lockdowns and other other covid restrictions no they were just about the mandates the vaccine mandates and that's how they got me because even though I spoke a lot in that video I made about the psychology not only the psychological harms but I was trying to raise awareness with the public about how the whole community had become so divided into these sort of I don't know versus man united football tribes right and but I did also talk about the precautionary principle and at the time they had just started the vaccine rollout and they were coming after the pregnant mothers and the you know which to me was always I mean just from a common sense point of view we've lived through thalidomide and all you know so many other of these situations surely surely giving untested chemicals to pregnant women when we tell them they can't eat certain cheeses and soaps yet we're going to put untested I mean for goodness sake so that was actually what they used to suspend me even though I said very clearly as a psychologist I can't speak about these things however there's other professionals that are saying it they still took me down for speaking out of line so statutory statutory introduced legal obligations prevented you from carrying out your statutory legal mandatory reporting requirements yes just a complete contradiction yes and I might not be using the correct legal terms John someone might jump on me for that so certainly the mandatory reporting requirements are statutory I think the the gag orders were under some sort of emergency powers and I don't know if that it might come under a different moniker I'm not entirely sure I'm interested in the the psychological techniques that were used by the government to get people to comply um I mean what sort of what is the the psychology there and how was it used used in in the Australian situation the psychological piece I think for me has we could talk for hours about this John it's it's really enormous I think for me as with so many others it's been one of the most disappointing pieces because I think people really need to understand when I went into psychology as a second career I sort of again naively assumed people went into psychology because they wanted to help people but actually vast numbers of the the highest performing psychologists at university are cherry picked by and I'm sure you can guess who advertising companies gambling companies now it's Silicon Valley but also these nudge units and the BIT units around the world nudge is an interesting euphemism isn't it isn't it no nudge nudge means uh covert psychological manipulation of thought bingo yes yes and one of the tricky things with the nudges is that so many people and I think it's sort of there's a inverse correlation with the more educated and more letters after your name people think they're immune oh I'd never fall for marketing I'd never fall for advertising and nudges I I'm too smart um I probably had that arrogance in my 20s myself yet if that's the case let's have a look at all these multi million or billion is it advertising companies around the world what's really key with the nudges and any of the marketing gambling psychological use is it all targets the unconscious areas of the brain it targets the the back areas of the brain um I'm sure you're aware John but possibly some of the viewers aren't it's estimated about 95 of our decision making just our everyday life how we go around the world how we respond to different situations is mediated from the back part of our brain it's like from unconscious decision making and those unconscious drivers which are very very primal drivers they're very innate they actually are there's different estimates between 200 and I think someone is saying 20 000 times faster and more powerful than our prefrontal cortex and this again if we're sort of going back to what I was saying before about we live in this unique time in the west we sort of really rare fire prefrontal cortexes don't we it's all about who's the smartest kid in class who can hold the most data and that's this part of the brain and it's very very clever and it's great for doing maths and it's great for all sorts of things but it shuts down when we're stressed as you know it goes offline or it certainly loses a lot of power and the nudges were all based on that they were based on the fact that people are operating from the back parts of their brain they are highly distressed highly frightened they're sympathetically aroused and what happens shall I go into that genre is that a bit yeah no please please do yeah please so just as a really basic psych 101 when we are under extreme stress our brain and nervous system completely change the way they operate too if we're just sitting in a in a calm one-on-one situation and what the body is trying to do is it's trying to ultimately keep us alive so it takes the brain it takes the resources away from these newer parts and it sends them down to the major muscle groups the legs the arms so that we can fight or run away and people will know that as the fight flight system and that's all fantastic if you're fighting a bear or I don't know if you want to jump out of the way of a car so if you want to jump out of the way of car or you want to start a fight or you want to run away from something or pursue a mate or escape from a saber-toothed tiger exactly all those saber-toothed tigers we have around at the moment let me just close that then it works very very well because you move very quickly however in a situation where there is not actually real physical life-threatening danger it can cause all sorts of problems because what we ended up with back in 2020 it is 2020 that this all started isn't it I get a bit confused it is yeah it is we ended up with all of these families and friends completely divided again back into those sort of football teams highly intelligent rational people people with pre-existing deep connection who were completely separated and what happened going back to the brain so what happens is if you and I are talking if you have a different point of view to me if I'm calm and in that parasympathetic state I'll say oh that's interesting John oh okay all right and then I might go off and have a think about it but if you are yelling it at me or it's coming out of a media screen with red and loud noises and oh my gosh everyone's going to die from covid then again the brain goes into the sympathetic corral so it sends the most of the blood down here and the prefrontal cortex the range constricts so you can't hold two conflicting views in space and rationally deal with it and very unfortunately this is when the psychological defenses and the nudges come in because as we now know I didn't at the time but everything had been programmed to to separate to have people into well they didn't want to separate they wanted everyone didn't they following the the government line and the way they did it I'm not sure if you've seen that seen there's now been some sort of review papers that have come out on which were the most successful nudges by gender have you seen that no I haven't so again and it just it's it's so disappointing to say the least so for the women it was all about sort of staying in community looking after your children etc for the men it was about I can't remember the term they use but it was basically that you're a wimp if you don't get vaccinated and at this point in history when men have really I feel lost their role it the waters have become very muddied um to then have the government subconsciously saying to you you're a wimp if you don't get yourself vaccinated get your family vaccinated you're a coward you're unmanly you're not protecting the weak that's it man up that's exactly it and it just it's it's so manipulative it's it's horrific what they've done I I really I didn't realize this when I made that first video but now that I've gone and looked at what all these techniques where they used it's it's um yeah I almost feel ashamed as a psychologist but with that John I do just want to say it's very easy for people then to jump on the psychologists that work in the nudge units and say oh you know they they're complicit they they're evil all of these things but I really do believe the vast majority of them they're young they get cherry picked out of university they go in they get given these big salaries and they think they were doing the right thing I don't think they were all thinking for one moment that they were trying to manipulate people towards bad ends and they were reba they were obeying orders and conforming yeah um it's a bit I mean the Solomon Ash thing comes into that as well doesn't it you know that you just conform with those around you it's it's got psychology all over it but the idea that there was an organized departments of government that increased fear to increase our sympathetic activity to deliberately reduce our rationality is really quite perturbing and everyone what everyone watching ros knows I I get anxious sometimes and I hate I hate the feeling of course but the worst thing about it is it robs you of your rationality yes you can't think straight you know normally I'll say okay we've got a particular situation here let's look at the airway let's look at the breathing let's look at the circulation or whatever it is you know that's in a first aid situation and as long as there's no catastrophic hemorrhage initially you know you have a rational way that you work through these things and and the anxiety just just just robs you of that and it's just it's just it's just horrible that this happens and it really is it does I think it does attest to the potential power that governments have and and should act as a warning of potential dystopian situations for the future because these powers are real this psychological manipulation which I would call it you might euphemize it to a nudge it's really these things are real and we're all susceptible to it we are susceptible to advertising you know we are most of us are average drivers we're not above average drivers as we think because by definition there's you know people have this unrealistic appraisal of themselves and I am prone to external environmental stimulation and other people and authority massively I would say a lot less than I was before the start of this pandemic but yes let's go on what led to the what is lighthouse roz? why did what is lighthouse how did that start? The lighthouse declaration yeah so really I know you will be aware John and possibly some most of your readers are but the the Cape Byron lighthouse declaration it really was a homage to the great Barrington declaration and if you remember with that one that was focused on what was revolved around focus protection for the elderly in the infirm they were saying stop these lockdowns too much cholesterol damage let's focus on those ones who actually need extra protection so our declaration is about raising the awareness concerning censorship and that is censorship of vast numbers of health professionals around the world all who like we've been discussing were deeply troubled with what was going on with the Covid policy and really trouble you know that was particularly troubling was that this censorship and propaganda especially it gave this false impression that there was only one truth they kept talking about trust the science and with the implication that anyone else any other narrative was unscientific so it's about freedom of speech it's about letting people know that there are huge numbers of health professionals speaking out who were many who was you know subjected to what can be described as highly draconian treatments from the medical boards and the governments around the world we were sort of like the naughty kids in class that they were making you an example of with the aim ultimately of terrifying others into submission obedience and in my case they took my psychology license i was threatened with jail i struck them with huge fines and they even ran a psychiatric assessment on me that i didn't go to so we still got as you know again most viewers will know a complete media blackout of any alternative viewpoints people that do speak out are often ridiculed and tagged with those words that again have been nudged to the 99th degree and weaponized things like anti-vaxxer and conspiracy theorists when people hear those words they sort of automatically switch off and yes so really it's about letting everyone know that we're not this bunch of this fringe bunch of dangerous crap pots which is what the media is saying that there's actually large numbers of us and we are we do know what we're talking about and we have a very different story to tell that's terrifying you don't agree with me therefore you're probably mentally ill that really is the ultimate statement in arrogance so we have we have this problem of censorship basically all around the world now do you think and it's it's not just these these issues that you raise we've got things like um particular treatments that should be available for open discussion and debate um raise that is the things that are done the thing things that aren't done um you know but put in your own examples in your own particular professional situation that's it i mean are nurses doctors psychologists and all these people or even ordinary citizens around the world are they seeing this or or is it they're not are they not seeing and if they're not seeing it why the heck not so i think one of the and as i mentioned to you before john i was back in the uk for a month at the end of last year for for a family visit and after i lost my license i spend most of my time speaking to people like yourself who are aware of what's going on i spend very little time back in whatever you want to call it through the other side of the looking glass when i went back to the uk and i lived in the uk for many years i went to uni there um i spent a lot of time with different family and fred groups who i people i really love and respect uh highly intelligent people but none of who know what's going on and i remember after about three or four days of it i thought i can't do this i i've got to get out this is it's too hard um but actually it became a complete gift because i was living in worlds and we spent a lot of time in a lot of different households where people were reading i don't know whatever newspapers they were watching the bbc they were speaking yeah that's right but i think the thing that we can so easily forget there's so many doctors health professionals all sorts of people really in on our side whatever you want to call it who are so frustrated with these people and think they're either stupid or complicit but having that window back into that world really reminded me and it's critical for i think people to understand is they're not stupid or complicit they have no idea and if they do here i think one of the mistakes that we've made and i've certainly made it myself was right back at the start we would just send all this information to our friends and our family because we wanted them to know what was going on we would try and send them all this data but again when people are highly psychologically defended in the face of a potentially enormous existential threat they can't process a lot of new data so even if you manage to get a tiny bit through a crack what will they do they'll go to google yeah or they'll go to facebook and there again they see not these people are crazy anti-vaxx conspiracy theories just stay away they're dangerous and on and on it goes so you might even go to a fact checker to check the facts haha right thank you reuters or all those friendly news initiatives i know and so this is one of the pieces for me the most important piece is psychological awareness until the whole playbook that they've used is a psychological playbook and so until people understand the psychology of what's going on it's really hard to see a way out of this mess and i i do struggle and i i've mentioned this to you previously john and i've said it publicly and i it doesn't often make me popular with a lot of those in the truth of community as it were especially the medicos this is not a medical debate it is a medical debate ultimately but ultimately it's psychological we have to understand how people got where they were and how people ended up with the opinions they did because if you we have a lot of people who let me get let me put this in better words if you're in a situation where you are in those two football tribes where you're highly divided whether it's about covid whether it's about gender ukraine climate it's all the same thing fundamentally if you have intelligent people who are holding a very different position to you until you understand the psychology and can look at how they have come to the conclusion they have come to you're really you're never going to get anywhere you're just going to keep seeing them as some sort of opponent but i really believe john that the vast majority of people for sure we might have some personality disorders and psychopathy up at the top of government up at the top of the pharmaceutical companies up at the top media but the vast vast majority of people are good they're lovely they love their families they tried in that awful situation of covid to protect their families that's all of those innate drives and if they were totally caught up in the whole media story then they believed vaccinating their children vaccinating pregnant women all of that was the best thing to do and that we were dangerous so really being able to look at the stories of other people hold the compassion for them that really is the pathway out as far as i can see it most of again or a lot of the medical people still believe that they just have to shout data louder and louder to the governments to the courts but for me i don't believe that's the way so so we have a lot of people that are simply pre-conceptual as to the reality of what is going on yeah largely because it seems to me because i think what you've said is that it's kind of a garbage in garbage out sort of situation isn't it then because the media is controlled because the narrative is controlled because there is one single narrative because dissenters from that narrative such as yourself are punished yeah we end up with a situation where well well i want to use the word Orwellian it's an Orwellian situation there is a particular truth and if you don't hold that truth you you might be sent from a psychiatric assessment that that is really quite frightening does this tie in with is i don't know i've written down a couple of psychological terms though they may not be psychological terms i've got sort of mass delusions and the madness of crowds is that is that huge group psychology so when i talk about these pieces i usually explain that there's sort of four primary pieces that are psychological pieces that are causing this first one being as we said earlier the majority of people are their daily life their their intellectual processing is unconscious from wired up at early childhood the second one is that when we are alarmed as i've already said we go into the back part of our brain um the third and fourth one sort of speak to this i'll talk about the third first the third is the reliance on primary caregivers so when we are small children obviously we have to rely as humans on these long primary caregivers to protect us for at least 10 years you're going to be lucky to look after yourself after that but you might and so strong is that innate driver that very very sadly if a caregiver is unsafe so they're either abusive or negligent what the children sadly almost always do is they internalize it is that it's somehow their own fault because a child cannot does not have the capacity to reject a primary caregiver so even if you have a child in a highly abusive situation that has the potential to go into a foster home they will prefer to stay with their current caregiver than go into that foster home and so even though that's when we're children when we then grow up and this is all of course unconscious right these are unconscious drives when we grow up and we go to university and move into our first department that sort of thing that reliance on primary caregiver it doesn't just dissolve when you turn 18 or 21 it unconsciously transfers to the government and and the institutions that are there supposedly to protect us so again if that government does something that's unsafe again whether negligent or abusive we will still prefer to default especially when we're stressed to what they're saying and so moving on from that into the fourth piece which is the group psychology piece again i think it's like we just talked about with advertising group psychology is a piece that people think they're too clever for i'd never be part of a group i'm a free thinker etc etc but the group psychology piece i think has been the number one driver of what's gone on we are pack animals we we are we we we swim with the the the shoulder we fly with the flock and once again the higher the stress goes the more we will cling to that pack and it's been it's it's one of the most interesting pieces for me uh why many of us didn't and that's an extraordinary complex piece i think there's a i've certainly got quite a few theories on that um i suppose the psychological theory here would be attachment theory is it is it is it bulby and people like that did the original well that's yeah fascinating you've sent that john so look i think attachment does have a huge piece to do with it and really interestingly it's the insecurely attached who are more likely to see this is one of the few times that being securely attached because if you're securely attached you at a primal level trust your caregiver and so that again transfers on to the government and so the people who i see and and this is a really delicate piece because people have this uh assumption that if we're talking about insecure attachment we're talking about oh you're telling me that my mother didn't love me not at all insecure attachment is something that travels down down the family line it is a massive massive piece in post world war ii again this is a piece we could talk about for a long time like i was talking about before keep calm and carry on that leads to insecure attachment but it came from a place of love we have to protect our children who are seeing bombs who are having many family members blow up you know be killed at the front so we don't do emotions in our family because it leaves people too vulnerable that's insecure attachment so i also there's a building site next door to my place at the moment there's um croatian guys there i find i see again and again and again people who grew up in countries where they had former ugoslavia what we would now call unsafe caregivers so what happens is they grow up and there's just the amygdala is scanning a little bit more for danger they're not just assuming everything's okay whereas if you grow up in the west with a secure attachment you're much more likely why should people distrust their government john and this is a huge piece this is what made me so sick when i found out we should be able to trust our government we should be able to trust our media and our doctors and the medical boards just relate that a bit to the amygdala the amygdala is this kind of gatekeeper to the to the to the higher centers is it what the amygdala yeah so so i and again this is why i believe everyone needs to understand basic psychology i used to teach it to five-year-olds and i can even i'll just go over here and show you because i've still got them from my telehealth sessions this is how i used to show the amygdala can you see those yeah to small children so we've got the anger and the frightened rabbit and i would describe the amygdala as the security guard and the security guard wants to keep you alive he's he's a big strong bloke but he's not very smart right and he makes mistakes and so the amygdala really can be thought of it's sort of like the fire alarm of our of our brain it's looking for threats to keep us safe to keep us safe a lot of the what we might now call the ego exists there it's there to keep us alive but it has false alarms and so if you grew up in a family or grew up in a country where there was constant conflict right then your amygdala is going to be looking out it's going to be looking out for danger you're less likely to believe everything you hear you might have a bit more of a hang on uh questioning uh authority mindset and yeah so people who grew up in countries where there were where there was warfare or trauma children who grew up in traumatic situations again they're far more likely to see it than people who are securely attached and had a really easy life in the west and that is a lot of doctors and a lot of medical like not all but a lot so a lot of a lot of us are are essentially pre-programmed to conform to be good little citizens 100 yeah i think there's a genetic piece in there as well but that's for another day yeah yeah well again that goes to attachment doesn't it if parents weren't well attached then their children are likely and if we can get this kind of generational not that one so much i think there is some of the dopamine and serotonin transporter genes that are implicated i used to work with a subset of the population that are differently termed as highly sensitive or have differential susceptibility have you heard of this sort of area of research no do you want me to talk about it or are we going on too long and need to just give us a quick couple of minutes yeah a quick couple of minutes is basically about 15 years ago just like darwin and wallace who came up with their theory at pretty much exactly the same time there were different groups of researchers who came across this same theory at the same time some of them were working with children some of them were working with mosquitoes i mean it was extraordinary what they found is that again they have different numbers so i call it on average about 12.5 of the population and that's all the way down the phyle energetic scale are highly sensitive and what that means is because people get a bit upset and they're saying oh you're saying i'm emotionally sensitive no it's environmentally sensitive on various ways it means people respond there's more plasticity in their response to various situations how i've there's various explanations uh the one that sort of intuitively fits right with me is that it's sort of a speciation event um similar to the way we would consider a canary you know we'd put the canaries down the coal mine right to see if like things were dangerous so these highly sensitive people are it's a for better or for worse situation so if you put them into good environments they flourish they are the top percent of musicians of intellectuals etc etc if you put them into a highly stressful environment they go the other way right so they they fall apart they end up um drug and alcohol problems across the board um but the theory goes that the speciation the reason genetically we're still here is because our job is to go out and seek new fields as it were just like the canary so if we go out and we find a new environment that's highly uh safe and a flourishing environment then we do really well so then the pack will follow and if we go down the coal mine it's horrible so uh no one follows that um but the way i sort of see that relating to what's going on at the moment is that it is the job of the highly sensitive phenotype to scan the field to look to look at everything and really it's it's a piece of system thinking right it's an ability to see the field it's an ability to look out and hold more variables in mind and consider how they are going to affect the organism and whether ultimately they're going to be safe or not so in this instance they're seeing all sorts of things that are highly unsafe so what i find is that the vast majority of people i speak to in the resistance or freedom community whatever you like to call it are highly sensitive uh a lot of them have a lot of trauma a lot both i am so i started off being fairly compliant because i've kind of been forced to comply for my professional career following the guidelines which to be fair for most of my career were based on a lot of them were wrong of course but they were based on the best available evidence at the time so have i but now now i question absolutely everything so can can i can you change to go into this from the 87 and a half percent into the 12 and a half percent can you learn to be one of the 12 and a half percent is that what i've done absolutely and it has to be safe you have to understand a bit of psychology and it has to be safe for you for you to be able to and i'm really glad you brought that point up john because i also did a complete 180. i actually right at the start in those highly dramatic first few weeks of lockdown i tried to um i asked my doctor about getting my daughter on the vaccine trial uh this was sort of 18 months before it even came out or a year before it came out because she had a highly compromised immune system and at the time they said covid was only a risk to the elderly and to those with compromised immune systems um i think that there's a lot of people again in the resistance community who get very angry with people who do 180s and who change i think the most powerful thing is that change is by turning around from you know being in one position going along being compliant again why would we question the government's telling us to do this it's unsafe uh you know this the sorry the covid's unsafe um why would we question it we live in england we live in australia there's no propaganda they will tell us the truth so it takes quite a time and quite a lot of i i haven't heard your story john but stress and distress to make that change doesn't it well for me it was cognitive dissonance you know we the science was saying that the vaccines were perfectly safe just to use the vaccines as one example you know the science was saying that the official science was saying ivermectin is a complete waste of time yes then i was talking to doctors in africa who said who told me they were saving lives with ivermectin i was talking to uh um kyle that the first vaccine injured first my interviewed and he had severe myocarditis from a safe vaccine i got this tremendous dissonance and it took a while it actually it actually took quite a few months of this evidence to accumulate and then the evidence was accumulating and accumulating i say no no all that all the official teaching can't be wrong you know the government does have a best interest then it was almost almost overnight the dam just burst it does and i thought just a minute this emperor is absolutely stark naked here yeah and and it was it's quite a distressing situation but i mean i'm i'm glad to be in the the 12.5 percent i i'm that was it the red pill i get them mixed up yes yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah get my pills is the 12.5 the amount of people now that are realizing what's going on is increasing so is this 12.5 percent now getting nearer 20 percent do you think i look that 12.5 percent like i said came from a particular field it's just the genetic predisposition yeah yeah so i don't know i've heard so many different figures with this i don't know john but if i can i'd really like to come back to the point you made about how distressing it was now for for different reasons we were exposed myself through my daughter's health and and you i guess because you were a nurse educator and you would be hearing from a lot of different people most people aren't exposed to it as you said like same as me same as most people i speak to the the veil lifts very slowly and the way it works is that the subconscious mind is is sort of being people talk about planting seeds it's being peppered with bits of information and it it forms a mass that the neural networks start forming together and then it will sort of start coming up into consciousness like i said before people might lock on google then it goes back but then more comes in and it starts coming so when you finally go oh my it is very fast and it is very distressing and that's the piece that that people really i'd really like people to understand is that if we can take that viewpoint about it's almost like waking a sleeping baby it really is isn't it you can't go in if you go in and scream at it to wake up you go in very very gently is that if we can hold compassion for people that when they find out the ground's going to fall out from under them as it did for so many of us and we have to do it really really gently and put away all of this division which has been deliberately done most people are good vast majority of people are good and are trying to do the right thing so if at all possible and not everyone can like i constantly told that especially by people that have been really bullied by the governments and lost their licenses it can be hard but try and hold compassion and you know give them these small pieces it would be much easier to to live in this delusional world but but personally i want to remain in touch with reality i do want to follow the evidence and you know you don't you don't always necessarily like the conclusion and and especially when it contradicts some of the the axioms really that you've lived your life by and you realize that that they were actually wrong and and then there's the there's a bit of a shame and embarrassment really i mean i mean you know i i believe the propaganda on vaccines and when i realized it was propaganda i thought just a minute i wrote a textbook on physiology and one of the chapters on that was in natural immunity where did that go yeah i wrote a chapter on it i taught it for 30 years and yet you don't seem to have that rationality and then when you realize it was propaganda and you think how could i not use that information that i'd spent my life accumulating and you can tell that even now i'm still confused yeah it's um it's not a nice place to be it's not a nice place to be in and we still certainly don't have all the answers i mean i like huge on i i pretty much fell to my knees when i realized it was like oh my god they're using psychology they're using all of this propaganda um yeah it's been incredible what they've done this shame piece is one of the biggest psychological blocks that we're dealing with especially in the medical profession it's the piece that has to be handled again most sensitively and it's the reason i think raising awareness about the psychological piece is so huge people are have you heard of double blind theory gregory blind double blind theory greg gregory baitson no okay so so double bind theory in a nutshell it's where people are in an impossible situation damned if you do damned if you don't they happen frequently in family situations uh but in this situation as an example if you take your average doctor around the world they have studied incredibly hard to get where they are they have a hypocritical which is an extremely important piece to them so they have the hippocratic oath i will look after and do the best for my patients and then they have a government saying in some countries you are gagged but in other countries it's pretty much implied so they're ultimately completely stuck now baitson's way out of the double bind is he says the only thing you can do is shine the light on the double bind it needs to be named because when it's named then you can start looking at solutions and again coming back to the doctors i think they're in an extraordinarily difficult situation yes there might be some who are starting to become aware of what what's going on and who is too scared to know there are certainly others that still simply don't know i remember having a great chat with claire craig when i was over a couple of months ago and she said to me ross you know your average doctor your average gp in the uk they work huge hours a week they're parenting they've got all this huge amount of juggle that we all have these days they might watch the bbc at night they'll get their regular updates from the gmc and if they do get sort of a whiff of something isn't right then they'll go to the gmc or whichever their appropriate professional boards are and be told the same party line so it's um it's very very difficult for them and i think again we have to be so careful about how we treat people who can have this huge barrier of shame for people i mean if you imagine highly intellectual doctors other professions who see us as fringe anti-vax can skip conspiracy theorists that's what they've been told to have to do this complete 180 that we're actually right and especially with doctors whose whole self-concept was built on from childhood being the smartest kid in the class the potential for shame there is so huge so we need to let them know you were manipulated you were psychologically manipulated you did the best that you believed you know you did what you thought was right so to come with the reasons it's one of these as i kind of make these videos really you know to admit you're wrong to admit you have shame about it yeah it's quite hard to do but you know it may be if people see me doing it they might follow you know it's um that's right noskeet yet huh know thyself that's what it's all about what we've said also makes we don't need to name them make sense of some historical situations where totalitarianism and dictators have taken charge and to to to rebel against that standard narrative it becomes remarkably difficult and one of the things that really terrifies me about about this whole thing and one of the reasons so important to do this is dystopias are possible you know we do have i mean north korea maybe is the classic example now but we do have dystopias where all these manipulative techniques can be used by small amounts of people in power to control large numbers of people yes also the also using the kind of divide and rule strategy i mean there was there was a point in our colonial history where about 40 000 british civil servants administered 400 million people in india how can that be well get maharaja a to slightly disagree with maharaja b and uh you know then you've got smaller groups to control and um we have the division we have the ongoing psychological manipulation and i think it is fair to call it psychological manipulation from mainstream media yes where there is there is one narrative anything else is attacked um anything else is not trusted anything else is disinformation fact checkers tell you what the facts are but the fact is they're making them as they go along and there's the medical the medical version of that of course sorry the medical version of that is medical journals now you know often publish what is bought and paid for yeah absolutely sorry i interrupted you what were you saying no no i i'm not sure because now another point's come up absolutely and for me i don't know if it was 15 years ago or 10 years ago do you remember marcia angela what she said about the lancet and there any jm so you remember her i mean that should have seen there's quite a few similar articles that where the alarm was raised well and truly yeah and so she basically said after i think it was 20 years as editor of the new england journal of medicine she said i can't do this anymore i can't watch the amount of um corruption for whatever better word by pharma they're cherry-picking what goes in and uh so i can't do it in all good conscience and i thought i remember at the time thinking oh brilliant that's that then no on they go but i think with the psychological piece yes people throughout history have been caught up in various psychological manipulations but the thing is it's like for the magic trick john when someone shows you a magic trick and it can have you absolutely perplexed for hours when they show you how they do it it's gone and this is the same with the psychological piece and this is why a big part of the work i'm doing outside of lighthouse is to start educating the public about what's gone on very safely to show them because it has to be done in a way to take away the shame it's not because people are stupid that's because people have directly targeted their unconscious brain which will always win the race drive the behavior why is it maybe maybe we've spent the last while discussing this but why is it so hard to admit that you're wrong and is that harder yeah i mean is that the mate is that part of the problem yes so i think and i'll talk from a british and a masculine point of view here because i grew up in a very british very masculine family um i believe one of the biggest problems we've got is that men particularly are raised and especially sort of private school boys they're raised to discount their emotional life when they're little if they cry stop being so sensitive i'll give you something to cry about all that kind of peace and again i don't think this came from a place of any sort of malevolence i believe it came from the place of ultimately the men are the physical protectors the men are the warriors and so historically we needed the men to be tough and so we we sort of pushed down the the emotions so we have all these men walking the planet running most of the big organizations the media the the farmer all the sea levels yeah who don't have most of them they'll always be exceptions but don't have that emotional realm their whole again self-concept their e you know their ego and i'm not using that in a pejorative sense is formed around their intelligence i rose to this level because i'm highly intelligent um so this is all if this is all put across as which it has been the intelligent versus the and you know the idiots the science trust the science versus the idiots who don't get science then i mean they've done it beautifully john you've got to give it to them you've got to give it to how they've manipulated this so we have to we can't and this is the piece presently we've still got everyone trying to screen data look at all these vaccine industries look at this look at this trying to shock them awake it's not going to i don't believe it's the way they have to understand and that they've been manipulated how do we how do how do how do we do that and how does that need us into the future so i believe we have to we're going to be obviously doing these bits of this podcast but i think going into the future we have to look at educating on psychological awareness right from the get-go children parents caregivers it's not rocket science like i showed you before even the basic parts i teach to five-year-olds and they love it they pick it up straight away they'll be talking about their amygdala oh there goes my fire alarm okay all right just my amygdala all right just my amygdala but if you try and teach that to a 50 year old CEO of some big pharma company or six-year-old it's it's much more difficult so i think there needs to be absolutely and i know we're talking when you're in um sydney uh i'll be talking about that piece that we need to look at widespread psychological psychoeducation um an understanding of perspective taking i mean perspective taking such a huge piece in this are you aware of the the sort of the sally and task that we use with children with autism no sally and task i'm glad it came i'm learning loads of psychology please tell us so this is a really basic one and it's it i mean it's mainly used in research but it's how we get an understanding of a child's ability to consider how they are holding someone else's uh perspective so it's called the field of theory of mind and yeah and so basically i'm thinking a you're thinking b do you know that i'm thinking a do i know that you're thinking b and do i know that you're thinking b might cause you to think i mean it ends up in this mirror of mirrors it gets very very complex but i know he said she said she said he thought with this task it goes like this so you've got these two little dolls you have sally and you have ann and sally has a basket and she puts a chocolate in it while ann is watching and there's a basket in a box and then ann leaves the room so you're showing this to three four five year olds and leaves the room and then sally takes the chocolate and she puts it in the box and so then ann comes back in and you ask the child where does ann think the chocolate is right so it's whether she was aware so if they're very little and i can't remember which ones i said but she'll think it was in the um the the place that was moved to the box right but over five they should know well hang on she was out of the room when it was moved but ultimately what we've got currently is we've got this division that is created on adults who are failing the sally ann task does that make sense so we're not understanding we're just going you're man united and you're an idiot right and i'm divided we're not going okay so you think that these vaccines are safe and we're dangerous because you were fed this propaganda and therefore right and they can't see where we are it's like labeling and stereotyping isn't it oh they're good at that and they've weaponized those words deliberately so anti-vaxxer as soon as as soon as people hear the word anti-vaxxer or conspiracy theorists do you remember those old 1970s cartoons and the evil villain would hypnotize people and they'd have those big spinning eyes that's what happens people hear anti-vaxxer and it's just there they are do you think i hadn't planned to ask this question but organizations can behave psychopathically 100 that is they are motivated by money and that they can act in a way that is completely amoral to achieve their ends psychopathy means to me that people are just things to be manipulated if i'm a psychopath people other people are just things i can step on them i can do what i want with them as long as it's serving my ends now organizations can behave like that do you think that some organizations and of course we're not naming any examples but is it possible for organizations to be like that because you do get particular people who actually are in a very small proportion of the population are psychopathic are in control or can be in senior influential positions in organizations yes and not only companies i would say that the vast majority of the institutions that currently govern us and are meant to protect us are acting psychopathically i believe the the judiciary the government huge levels of bureaucracy and again it's it's really important to say it's not because there's evil psychopath and i don't even want to say all psychopaths are evil because they're not but it's not about individual actors as you say organizations can form their entire new culture and that is a group means that people will follow that group and fall into it i really believe and again i think it's one a big problem we've got there's a lot of bread-filled groups around the world who are still there trying to fight the government's royal commissions this that and the other i mean i've been i've got involved in one here but um ultimately the way most of those you know solutions are trying to uh to fix things is almost with this from this premise that there's bad people in those institutions and if we just take out those bad actors and put in good actors like you and me john then all will be hunky dory but i don't believe that's the case at all i believe it's those systems and institutions that themselves very much in in the way you're talking about create the bad actors yeah that they have a particular culture they do that that encourages people to behave in a particular way yeah and of course over over time that involves particular people being recruited so you know if you take an agency say the bbc in my country the way i perceive it it is a completely different organization with completely different aims now to the one i knew as a young man you know when i was working in remote areas in the world the bbc was an absolute lifeline you know you'd tune in and go ddddd this is london and that meant you were going to get the truth it's changed you know you know that last 40 years it's just changed beyond recognition you know there's this evolution and and unfortunately a lot of the evolution seems to have been in a negative direction and i see the same in australia i see the same with governments and the fact that this is happening in many places at the same time over over the last 40 years really happening in many places indicates to me there's a possibility that there's an external cause that's affecting all of these am i is that just being paranoid or is that a possibility oh so the uh i try and stay away john from what's behind this all there's some pretty diverse uh and quite terrifying theories out there i stay in my lane with this my sense is that in the last 30 to 40 years what have we seen we've seen a huge increase in psychological manipulation psychological knowledge advertising marketing we've also seen this explosion of mbas right yep yeah and masters of business and administration degrees yeah that's right and so mbas their whole i think our prime minister might have one actually i'm not sure about that yeah mbas i think are a big problem because ultimately and i worked at accenture for a while back in the day and i remember it was the last corporate i worked for because i remember seeing partners i don't even know they're on half a million bucks a million bucks huge amounts of money who are our society sees as sort of the the top of of the tree screaming at each other like toddlers the the whole or everything they're focused on is is about profits and getting as much as you can out of people it's about getting as many people as possible to buy stuff that they don't need by making them feel insecure about who they are without having these things and so i think that's a huge part of it and then of course you had the whole behavioral economics field really start to uh to grow and understanding that again the amygdala the midbrain all of those parts nucleus accumbens that whole reward pathway how beautifully it could be manipulated to make profit so i i do think very very sadly that's a part of it which again comes back to we need everyone we need to take the rabbit out of the hat and we need people to understand how their brains work we need people to understand because you catch yourself i mean my daughter who's 14 she talks about it all the time okay they just went into a this that or the other state if you teach it from the start you don't fall for these things so easily and if you do you can pick yourself up quickly and it needs to be stopped it needs to be stopped because do you think the current state of communications and electronic communications and web communications around the world is part of the problem is a potential ally how should we look at it that's a a huge question john i think things are beginning to change there's still a lot of division about the sincerity of that change certainly if we take elon musk and twitter for example we saw vast numbers of early voices uh d platform just if that's right word d platformed uh they're now coming back on board there's still a lot of people that have a lot of issues with elon musk i'm sort of switzerland i don't know uh what i do know is that currently we have a place where previously hidden and dissenting voices can now communicate with each other which is good in terms of the rest of the communications i think like the importance of understanding psychology i think it's really important for people to understand how the algorithms work i mean not at a really deep technical level but just in terms of the echo chamber i think most people who are if we're going to call them red pills are now pretty aware of that and how that works but certainly again the the vast majority of the people who are still completely unaware of what's going on they don't know of all these other platforms they're looking at they don't know that for instance if we put this video or i won't say youtube some things are banned on youtube some things are banned on vimeo some things are banned on facebook um it's again understanding that those algorithms are in place but also how those algorithms who are in charge of those algorithms how for instance trusted news initiatives um fact checkers as you said before Reuters have people board members who are also on the boards of Pfizer etc etc so again public awareness raising around those pieces is really important with the focus on removing shame it's not your fault you're not stupid you were manipulated and you weren't able to see this other information because of the way the technology is being used you're recruiting people called lighthouse keepers who have a vision what is a lighthouse keeper and what sort of visions do these people have so a lighthouse keeper is with we're sort of running the metaphor of the lighthouse it's the people who are shining the light and showing a way of safety through very very troubled waters initially the sorry i've got a little kitten here on my lap let's have a look here she is hello look there she is this is daisy oh hello daisy as long as she's well behaved she's more behaved she's more than welcome she's well behaved it's my other cat that we're trying to introduce her to who's not so fond of her she's very frightened um but when with the lighthouse keepers when rob paul and myself initially came together about this it was about as i've said before raising awareness about the censorship about the uh punishment for many of us of dissenting voices and that was who we were primarily profiling interestingly what's happened is as i've reached out to a lot of those uh people around the world a lot of them are under gag orders uh i wanted to be lighthouse keepers but under additional gag orders from lawyers from their governments uh and so weren't allowed to speak out so we sort of spread the apron a little bit so we have people who have everyone's spoken out certainly but they've not all been um disciplined in this way some of them left their jobs rather than lost their licenses uh but but the theme is speaking out uh going against the group i suppose most of us have uh it's not been easy being a lighthouse keeper a lot of us have lost friends family colleagues for sharing the messages that we have but all of this would absolutely do it over and over again because it's we believe it's so important so do do you want me to sort of say who they are or do you yeah i mean i just reflect first the stress at different levels a lot of the people that i'm working with like yourself who are particularly courageous but have lost their livelihood to a large extent um a lot of younger professionals it's harder a lot of the people i talk to are older retired or at the end of their careers they're they're the most outspoken there's also another level of threat i mean i've had the police around with death threats you know there are some pretty weird people out there there are yeah it is it is quite hard in some respects yeah yeah so what sort of visions would these lighthouse keepers have what are we looking forward to can i just jump onto two points from what you just said before we talk about that the first one is you talked about courageous people um there's a lot of people who see people such as myself and the other lighthouse keepers as though we have some sort of personality trait of bravery and courage and i want to be really honest here this was this is the hardest thing i've ever done in my life and john i've had to have a meeting with john before this interview because i don't i'm not a public speaker i don't find this easy at all i you know i think courage and bravery is not about having no um reaction to speaking out it's about pushing through all of your terror and misgivings whatever it may be and still speaking the truth because for me at the end of the day as a mother and as someone who worked with highly sensitive and traumatized children i just could not not speak out i actually stopped for a while i thought this was all too much and i said someone else has got to do this and then i couldn't sleep the next three nights i thought in the end i i just had to even if it meant i gave up everything uh so please don't think that there's courageous and brave people and leave it to us to do we need everyone to speak up it's so important because the more people that speak up the quicker the group uh grows uh that the and that really is another sort of proxy primary caregiver another piece you mentioned john was about the retirees um i was talking to ross jones who i i know you've interviewed previously a great lady yeah yeah she's lovely pediatrician yeah yes good great thinker incredible incredible she's one of our lighthouse keepers and one of the things i've seen and this isn't from ross so much but it's from us other um retirees is our culture currently has very sadly elders and retirees sort of put out to pasture they're on the scrap heap we're a young marketing if you're over 40 you're gone we're beautiful with you know it's that whole sort of thing and this is again a really unique in history we always used to listen to our elders they held the wisdom and i really believe we need to go back to that there's a lot of retirees who have said to me oh i'm past it no one listened to me and i think the opposite i think the retirees we really need to encourage them to speak out because as ross says is an mclosky dr mclosky one of our other lighthouse keepers says they've got nothing to lose absolutely if you're a young just out of uni just starting your career you've got mortgages kids it's much harder but the retirees who see what's going on and there'll be vast numbers of them please please add your voice because not only are you able to say what you want but actually the younger ones really respect your wisdom it's safe in psychological terms the elders carry wisdom and safety just give me maybe an example or two of the visions that these people have what sort of bright uplands are they looking forward to i think a really common theme that we're all looking forward to is that we believe we've come to this crazy place in history where we've never been so divided where there's huge amounts of trauma going on but from that it's almost that we sort of had to hit that horrific place from which people could then start waking up and looking at the psychology but also the history how have we got to this place in humanity and what are the lessons that we can learn here because when we understand how we got here we all need to have i mean there's been too much trauma but some of it we just need to laugh at ourselves laugh at these incredibly arrogant myself included you know i've had enormous arrogance over the years positions i've taken where i have just had no discernment about other people's opinion so i think it really is that it's almost like a raising of consciousness that this is going to bring about and we'll really believe that and i despite everything that's gone on i'm i'm really excited for the future i i think we're headed for incredible times but i do believe a lot of the current incumbent systems do need to be dissolved and reformed i do hope you're right but there is also risks so like that i'm glad glad to hear an optimistic outcome how do we uh support lighthouse practically will you give us all the links that we need absolutely any practical things i'll give you all the links we're just about to start our social media campaign one thing i would ask john if it's okay we have done a little bit of social media the last few weeks and we pick up thousands of likes and retweets and comments many likes and retweets signing the declaration is 30 seconds to a minute max but i think we live in this world now as so many people are scrolling on their phones and they do the like in the retweet and i would really encourage people if you want to be active please come and sign the declaration we do have a uh a survey that goes to health professionals as well and we've we put that out a few months ago sort of building up a story of what the health professionals have been through around the world and as i'm sure you can imagine that's starting to paint quite an incredible picture um you know obstetricians who are now cutting down trees and um anesthetists waiting tables there's there's huge numbers of people and it's a really powerful message so we do want to keep collecting those stories and we'll be coming back with them fairly soon i have had to pause that survey just briefly because there's been some changes in how the mandates and things are working in different countries but that'll be up again in a week um and yes i i'm not sure if i mentioned that start a colleague of mine and i we are starting a psychological awareness um i don't know if it'd be a podcast uh sort of series um and in that we are going to be talking a lot about how to speak to people and again understanding from a psychological perspective that trying to sort of shout more and more data at people it's not the way it's it's the way we very gently start planting seeds um is it it's using psychological strategy to be as effective as we can in order to slowly pepper the back of the brain so that people can then themselves start questioning they have to do it themselves we can't tell the declaration there ros what does it say uh yes do you want me to pull up the website i'm not sure if i yeah yeah just read out the declaration so well the declaration's quite long um give us the gist of it then okay so i'll just go to the uh the sort of four key points yeah um number one all silencing and censorship by bureaucrats and regulators including of experienced practitioners and scientists must stop there must be respect for every individual's right to freedom of opinion and expression number two the right to informed consent must be upheld and it must include being fully informed of relevant risks as well as any benefits proven or presumed number three mandates and other forms of medical coercion are unethical and must cease bodily autonomy is the inalienable right of every individual and must be respected and number four there's an urgent need for transparency and reform in science and medicine and to halt the increasing globalization of public health we demand the restoration of voice and decision power to individual practitioners and to those they serve there's not much to disagree with there isn't there i don't think so not really and yet such obvious things just aren't being done and we can all see that that's yeah that's happening so so that is that is there we'll put the links to that um links to your new materials we are going to try and put together some of the visions perhaps of the lighthouse keepers i think that would make uh a really interesting thing for for viewers um to look at um we'll work on that um lots of interesting things happening delighted to have an optimistic video we do deal with quite a few pessimistic subjects on here i'm afraid oh absolutely but i think the power of humanity yes there are very many things huge concerns in all of this um and similarly i i hear people talking about them most days but ultimately i i really do believe in the goodness of humanity and the future is in our hands but we have to act and uh shape it and take it and that's it and again while please do sign and while this is just um while we're talking about medical the censorship of medical professionals it's not just for medical professionals to sign at all it's for everyone to sign um everyone watching is free to sign that yes absolutely yeah great roz for now um hopefully we'll talk again and uh i'm really looking forward to editing this i normally find editing a bit boring but there's so much interesting stuff i want to listen to it again and thank you for thank you for all the psychology which is uh which uh some completely new stuff and refreshing some of some old stuff for me so so that's great so for now uh just tell us what's temperature it is in sydney at the moment is it is it still high i'm not in sydney i'm not in sydney are you in the mountains of course yeah so it's cool in the mountains it snows where i live believe it or not people get a bit surprised at that um so it is i'd say it's about 17 celsius oh that's not too bad how is it in um lovely kyle isle oh it's it's it's always warm and sunny here apart from your days it isn't like today it's been about today's been warmish about nine degrees but pretty damp grayish rainy it's beautiful kyle's beautiful we kind of get used to it yeah we take vitamin d because we don't make it from the sun oh isn't that the conspiracy theory though john uh i could be because i i i talk about it so i guess it must be better one of our lighthouse keepers paul oosterhouse he had the medical board on the phone and his what he got pulled up for was because he talked about vitamin d on twitter unbelievable i know but we'll follow the evidence wherever it leads but for now ross thank you very much thank you john it's been a pleasure